Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Holly Hubbard Preston - International Herald Tribune -, January 24, 2004
URL: http://tinyurl.com/2agsx

Leon Cronkright has seen it all. As a dealer in gold coins in San Diego for the past 30 years, he has catered to all types of investors, neophytes as well as sophisticates, at all points in the investing cycle.

But one thing has remained constant: Despite warnings from him and the best advice of insurance agents and law enforcement officials, Cronkright's clients often insist on storing at least a portion of their valuable holdings at home, rather than in the safe-deposit vault of the local bank.

Although Cronkright does not recommend home storage, he has felt compelled to look into the best way to do it so that he can advise clients - and, perhaps, prepare them for the worst-case scenario.

"I tell them to have two safes," Cronkright said. "A cheap one that is filled with a wad of cash, some papers and costume jewelry that is placed in a master bedroom, and then a second safe that is in a less obvious place where you put your valuables."

Whether it is paranoia over an imminent crash in the financial markets or the seeming peace of mind that comes from having ready access to one's hard assets, home storage is a popular concept - and one that is likely to grow.

U.S. Bancorp, a Minneapolis-based investment house, noted in December 2003 that the global security industry generates more than $120 billion in annual revenue with personal safety products like safes, vaults, locks and fire suppression equipment accounting for about $19 billion of those sales. While it said that the industry had been growing at about 7 percent since the 1990's, Piper Jaffray projected annual growth of 8.5 percent of more over the next few years, driven by fears of crime, terrorism and other security threats.

That heightened risk profile does not seem to be deterring people from home storage.

Often the reasons are emotional. An American gemstone collector, who requested anonymity, made no apology for spending thousands of dollars on an in-home security system so that he could have ready access to his gems.

"I wanted to be able to take them out and enjoy them when I want and where I want," said the collector, who estimated his collection to be worth half a million dollars. So far, he still has the baubles.

The main problem with home storage, insurance and security experts agree, is that most people just do not do it right.

Jan Weyhrich, a senior personal property insurance executive for State Farm Insurance in Bloomington, Illinois, said he was amazed at how many seemingly sophisticated clients entrusted their valuables, usually jewelry and currency, to a portable lock box stashed in a nightstand.

"That's the first place thieves look," he said - and, not coincidentally, the first reason many insurers would deny payment of a claim.

Other people concentrate on buying a top-of-the-line safe but neglect to protect the home in which it sits. John Sims, a manager in London for Chubb Group European Division, said that "no matter how good safe is, if someone walks in with a firearm or knife, what's in the safe is gone." Sims added that most of his clients - people who tend to have insurable hard assets in excess of $200,000 - come to him already in possession of at least one home safe.

But while a home safe may not be the ultimate line of defense against burglary, it can provide protection against fire - if it is rated resistant enough. That may not occur to owners of hard assets like coins, but it should: Cronkright said he had clients who stored coins at home in safes, thinking that they would be secure, only to have them melt down within the safe during a house fire. Owners of South African Krugerrands or Canadian Maple Leaf coins, for example, would suffer minimal loss, since the intrinsic value of the metal had not changed. For those who had rare or numismatic coins, however, the losses were exponential. Once melted down, "a rare coin worth $100,000 is worth nothing but the ounce of gold it weighs," Cronkright said.

Insurance experts like Sims and Weyhrich insist that the best place for valuables is a bank safe-deposit box: fireproofed, behind a vault door, and patrolled by security personnel. Although banks do not typically carry insurance for the items in the boxes - "There's no way for them to know what's in there," Sims said - companies like Chubb will write cover for individuals.

And in the end, whether your insurer will cover you is probably the determining factor in whether you store your valuables at home.

Whatever the item, clients who want to store any meaningful quantity of rarities in their home will need to make a compelling argument in order to get Chubb to underwrite them.

"We have to understand the logic of why someone wants to have these items at home," Sims said.

Having ready access to precious jewelry or even a well-documented coin or stamp collection will very likely fly, Sims said, but having a small mint of ingots, bought for investment purposes, may not.

Clients who want to store assets that seem logical for a home safe can go along way to winning over their insurer by having a well-thought-out security system in place. That can be easier said than done and involves more than just buying a top-of-the-line safe - although that is a good start.

Prices for safes can vary wildly from a couple hundred dollars to $5,000 depending on their features and laboratory ratings. Safes are generally rated for the amount of time it takes a burglar to break in as well as for their resistance to fire. A home safe made by Browning of Morgan, Utah, among the most reputable names in the business, will cost $1,600 to $2,600 for its most popular model, the Browning Medallion gun safe. Gun safes, like those made by Browning, which is also a leading supplier of firearms, are often used for storing other assets.

"How you deploy a safe or vault is as important as selecting the device itself," said Duncan Long, author of several books on industrial and residential security. "What I found most in visiting crime scenes was that a person had bought an expensive safe and then not anchored it down and some gang of thieves had carried it off."

Likewise, a vaulted, steel-reinforced door, like one made by Browning, might cost about $1,500 to $2,500. But anyone paying that much needs to ensure that the door is sealing a room or closet that has also been properly reinforced. Such an installation might cost $10,000 or more.

No matter how expensive the device or prolific its bells and whistles, no safe or vault is impenetrable. Even Browning's highest-rated models for home use only offer about three hours of resistance to burglary tools. Fire-rated safes, which can be as much as 75 percent more expensive than those that are only burglar-tool rated, guarantee only so much heat tolerance.

Whether it be theft or fire, security experts agree that it is important not to rely solely on one device to safeguard your assets. One expert recommends that his clients have at least two deterrents in place, in addition the safe, which should be anchored into the ground and then reinforced by concrete.

The first, he said, is an in-home alarm system. Cost can vary but, as a benchmark, many analysts use the home system marketed by Brinks, which charges $20 to $30 a month for its remotely monitored system, on top of an installation fee that starts at $99 and can go much higher. If that seems steep, remember that insurers look for an alarm system along with the presence of a safe, Sims said.

Next, a thorough check for should be done for hazards that may not be obvious. In some communities, the police offer such a service; otherwise, private security consultants do, too. The security expert looks for windows covered by trees and hedges that could shelter a burglar doing surveillance. He also looks at the kind of locks on the windows; if they can be easily opened from the outside, that is good for family members who lock themselves out, and good also for burglars who want to get in.

Finding someone reputable to install a security system is critical, but checking credentials may not be all that easy. Government regulation of the global security industry, though an increasingly popular idea, is still in its infancy in many markets. Britain has moved ahead, creating the Security Industry Authority to license all security officers working for private companies as of next year. The license will include a criminal record check and a training requirement.

In the absence of government regulation, consumers can check with industry trade associations, which do fairly comprehensive checks on their members and their employees. Banks and local law enforcement officials can also be the source of referrals for reputable service providers.

These are two final points on which experts agree:

Avoid private security deposit companies, since they are not subject to the same regularly monitored security audits as government-regulated banks.

Forget about such things as cleaning bottles and fake juice containers as minisafes. "A criminal knows all the tricks people use to hide goods," an expert said, adding that he had seen houses torn to shreds, cleaning products included, by thieves looking for those hiding places.

International Herald Tribune

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

This is rather discouraging. Irish, did you say you had another thread that discussed potential safe keeping

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Does anyone else find this strange? If you are a taxi driver, you don't have to understand the logic of why someone wants to go certain places. All you need in exchange for your services is adequate compensation.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Well......gold bullion should be the easiest to hide within a household setting. Held within their original storage tubes, and these tubes placed within a PVC tube that is sealed permanantly on one end and with a clean out threaded seal on the other........they can be hidden in several ways. (i use 2 1/2 inch PVC pipe for these)

If your basement is unfinished you can simply bury it in a place you can remember......and with a map placed in your safe deposit box so that your heirs can find your stash when you pass on! (it's going to happen someday, after all!) Good to do this no matter where you hide your stash. Some bury their stash in the yard, but you can open up your "inventory" to the likes of metal detector users sometimes and even if you throw around some junk metal items to confuse and frustrate these types there's always the possibility of it being found when you're away. If you only have a tube or so you can hollow out a thick book, and place it within a good sized bookcase. Most thieves want to get in and out as quick as possible, and usually spend less than 15 minutes within a home.

BTW....if you're worried TPTB might then locate your gold if it's ever subject to consfication.......give the map i mentioned earlier to a trusted family member rather than leave it in your deposit box....but keep all info leading to your address off the map so that if "their" house is ever hit the thief won't have his next job lined up! :D

You can also create a hollow space in a closet wall and cover it with removable paneling or such for these reasonalbly sized tubes. Put in a few studs about a foot to a foot and a half from the previous wall, place some 3/8 inch plywood from the floor to maybe two feet up, and cover with some paneling to which you have attached some velcro strips. The plywood re-enforcement along the 1st 2 feet will keep heavier silver bags from stressing the paneling and will allow for quite a few silver bags to be well hidden.

Pull up a few floor boards and hide tubes between the joists. Up in the attic under some insulation is a good place......as most thieves won't take the time to tear apart an attic......especially with that fiberglass insulation that causes itching when handled. A tube set up to hold 100 ounces is under 2 feet long, and shouldn't be a problem to hide it within the structure of a building. In the past i have drilled out under a sink and wired in a tube to appear as a clean out fixture. Just be sure you're around when any plumbing work is done!

Silver.....due to it's bulk......is going to be much more difficult to hide. But it will be much more difficult for any burgler to walk off with easily also ! This is where a house with "clutter" really shines! :woohoo: I'm a pack rat, and if something has value i tend to hang onto it even when i've stopped regularly using it. So bags of silver can be burried under normal(or abnormal) household clutter. Put i bag of silver in a box......cover with a bunch of heavy books......and place within a bunch of other boxes of books. Doubt that box with the coin bag will be found.......even by YOU! :haha:

If you're lucky enough to own your own home........placing one of the larger floor safes in the ground and surrounding it with concrete will be one of the best ways to protect your stash. The concrete........combined with the weight of the silver (and gold if you have enough weight to matter)......make for a pretty secure setup especially if you cover the door opening with some plastic and cover with dirt if in an unfinished basement. Someday i hope to have one like this.

It's even better if, as stated in the article that started this thread, you have a second smaller safe as a diversion stuffed with not so valuable costume jewelry, small amount of silver and/or gold, and some cash. This way, should someone break in while you're home and you're caught off guard.......you can possible satisfy his/her need for some cash and such, while protecting your main stash.

I have a huge old wooden oak toolbox that i put up in a deep closet. I'm currently storing 7 bags of 90% silver in it......but i'm thinking i might open the bags and just pour them all loose in there. Reason......to slow down any potential burgler. With no bags available to quickly carry off....though heavy as they be.........the loose coinage will certainly slow things down! Just be sure to hide the bags in a different area.......no reason to help a thief.

Those with an "old fashioned" cedar chest can roll up a bunch of silver quarters or dimes......place them on the bottom, and cover them with some cedar planks for a false bottom. Just be sure to use all the same (either dime or quarter rolls)......so that the wood plank covering will lay flat. Be sure to put some clothing in there also.

And that clutter can sure help to bury any large container you choose to store your silver stash.........just fill that closet with boxes of most anything us pack rats seem to accumulate. (maybe even having some silver bags within those boxes of books). Most burglars tend to be the lazy types......and won't want to do a lot of work for their livelihood..........that's why they do what they do! :thumpdown

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Thanks for the ideas, very creative - one pack rat to another :yippee:

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

This is insanity. I pay $80 a YEAR for a "decent" sized safe deposit box at my bank. Makes all my worries go away. I don't get to play around with my stuff very often but at least it is safe. Heh.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Thoust doest speakeeth a little too quickly whilst thy neurons are not firing fully.....verily i say! :D

.....seriously, sounds like you aren't familiar with the time the US Gov't FROZE the Nations safe deposit boxes in 1933 after it was made illegal for the US Citizenry to own gold bullion. They were opened under Gov't supervision and any gold bullion siezed and replaced with crap paper at the then rate per ounce. Soon afterward our President devalued the dollar and raised the gold price....effectively stealing from the people.

Some say it might happen again........want to risk it when you'll need your PM's the most?

Also, i own the largest bank safety deposit box i could find........and i might be able to get maybe 2 full bags of 90% silver in there, but it would weigh about 110 pounds and strain both me and the thin box! Not much room for anything else and many of us have quite a few more bags than that!

Finally.....WTSHTF you want ready access to your stash! My bank is closed on weekends and at night.....as are most. If you need your metals to flee with, and can't get at it.............you and those you love may die in a worst case scenario. Want to risk that?

..........your worries are still there, my friend........

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Hedge your bets. Here's what you could do. Use safe deposit boxes for storing silver and some gold. The rest, store it at home. Study your home carefully finding "creative" hiding spots that no one else would think about. Next, buy a small safe. Leave it somewhere obvious and keep some heavy objects inside. So if your house gets burglarized, the thief may be content to just take the safe and leave.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

For large amounts of coins how about this: Get a few long pipes that are just wide enough for the coins and put them vertically into a huge block of concrete. Then you drop in your coins one-by-one, and if you or anyone else wants to get them out, there is no other way but fishing them out one-by-one. If you make it so difficult that it takes several minutes to get each coin out, the easiest way to rob you would be to actually destroy the concrete block, which is of course an approach against which no safe can ever protect you anyway.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Another idea if you have old computer equipment like an old printer. Take it apart and remove all the electronics, then carefully spread out silver coins to balance the weight. Secure the coins so they won't jingle. Put the printer back together using epoxy glue to secure the thing shut. Next, put it somewhere in a "junk" pile. This way if a thief enters the house, they will look the other way.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

jeweler, and others, good posts!

I guess bigger questions to me are: Where would you go? And how would you get there...with all that silver and gold...efficiently and safely? What would you do when you got there? Seems really difficult to see how this would play out. It is probablly getting into a whole new thread, but I would be interested in the responses of this group.

Prechter seems to say or imply you should have enough at home to get you to a Swiss bank box. Sounds like you would have to be a pretty big player to follow this scenario. How do you get each purchase into your Swiss bank box??

If your are close, you might be able to do it in a Canadian box in a bank without a reciprocal agreement with what the U.S. government is trying to accomplish.

I do think is inevitable there will be a major crisis at some point in time as the result of enormous unfunded commitments, and serious political and social decay. However, it could unfold more slowly. Reportedly, as in the 30s, many who were well-positioned or not extended, did rather well.

I believe it is more likely the U.S. government will not go after the PMs this time, but the tax-deferred investment accounts, which are probably much larger and much easier to find.

StreetMind

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Does anyone know why it was suddenly made legal for American citizens to own gold again? The most obvious explanation I can think of is that the idea behind this is to get people to pay for gold, and as soon as they have accumulated enough of the gold, just take it from them forcefully and start over.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

:devil: I think you could be on to something? Just don't give up yours! I will sell all my new (ect), gold first and hold all the old U.S. Gold. I have been meaning to count how much gold the Gov. has sold to the people with the new coins but the wife is always so busy! But I don't think it is all that much. They won't get much from their stealing just a lot of LEAD.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

:argh: Don't forget your appliances there is a lot of free space. I learned this from repairman friend. He said even the police miss stuff hidden in them. Just let the wife know as you would not want her calling one!! :haha:

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

StreetMind

Great questions and observations. I think it is important to have a good amount of "portable" precious metals. I am very bullish on silver for investment purposes - but in a potential "get outta Dodge" scenerio I'd rather have to carry ten ounces of gold vs. a bag of junk silver. Sure it's good to have some silver "ready to go" but carrying around enough to get you and your family safe, sheltered, fed and transported just doesn't seem practical.

Someday I hope to have the money to open several safe-deposit boxes around the world (hopefully hypertiger's off by a few years);say Switzerland,
some spots in the Caribean, maybe Australia and keep some gold coins there.
It's good to have options.

In a previous life, somewhere else, I wrote a series of posts about IRA accounts and how the government may change the tax rules on those account when the baby boomers retire en mass. The amount is large, it's easily found and under the control of banks and brokers - "Dear Mr. & Mrs. taxpayer - either you pay a special 20% tax on your IRA or the system collapses tommorrow....please make your checks payable to Internal Revenue Service." I do not discount this possibility at all.

Cheers!

FF

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

For paper cash and jewlery,,,,,take out a door from its frame, turn it upside down, take out the cover from the bottom and also the guts of the door (if is not a solid door) place your cash inside put the bottom cover back and hang the door from the frame once again.,,,,,,, for silver, long term storage,
choose a wall and give it a slight cover of plaster of paris, stick your one oz. coins to the wall, give it a heavier cover of plaster of paris and paint it. This was what I did at one time and it works really good, the only way to get the silver is to know that the silver is there.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

[QUOTE=FoundingFathers]StreetMind

Great questions and observations. I think it is important to have a good amount of "portable" precious metals. I am very bullish on silver for investment purposes - but in a potential "get outta Dodge" scenerio I'd rather have to carry ten ounces of gold vs. a bag of junk silver. Sure it's good to have some silver "ready to go" but carrying around enough to get you and your family safe, sheltered, fed and transported just doesn't seem practical.
Did you ever hear of a big Truck? I hear what you are saying Gold is great.. But big truck be can lug lots of silver and keep roof over you head. I think you could easily take the needed equipment to make fuel, a little solar, some traps :rant: :

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

For even safer storage of your silver coins........have your next cement replacement project work to your advantage! Just pour those suckers in there and leave enough space on top for a few inches of cement.......bingo.......instant silver re-enforced concrete!
...........remember...........sorry, not my idea of a fun afternoon extracating my stash from my walls or foundation. :haha: :rofl:

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

FF, I agree with you here and believe that the Roth IRA scheme was designed for that purpose. Get people to pay all their taxes up front and then tell them they cant touch their money for 20-40 years. Also, you get those people with regular IRAs to convert to the Roth and pay the tax differntial. Then, out of the blue, you tell the country, we're broke, we need to change the Roth IRA rules. My friend wanted to do this recently because he thought he would make a killing when he retired with his tax savings. I tried to convince him not to, but dont think I was successful. Why not just own the coins as a retirement account, the tax problem is much simpler. I have my PM specifically earmarked for different purposes (kids tuition, retirement, house, speculation, etc.).

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

I am of the school of thought that no one position can be totally defended. Anything static can be taken...depending on the desire to do so.

Try to rely on your mind and deceit...things hidden in plain sight are sometimes amazingly difficult to find.

If you brag about your precious things to anyone, then no place you hide them in the house will be safe. If you can remain quiet though, it becomes easy.

The vast majority of opportunity break-ins are quick hits. They want in and out without much fuss, and time is their enemy...as is light, being seen, and noise. Therefore, don't just hide your precious things in odd places, like doors, base-boards, water heaters, etc., but leave some treats out in case they do get in.....a jewelry box with a few fake diamond rings (make them look like they should---------not some 700lb engagement ring) a couple bright watches kept in "their" rolex boxes which can be purchased for not much money...even some knockoff rolex watches, knockoff cartier, etc., flashy fake gold necklaces, 2 or 3 old shotguns in odd corners (disabled from firing, whether through removed hammers, firing pin devices, etc.,) $50-$100 in paper money "hidden" where it will be found, several stacks of fake money with a real $10 sandwiching the fake stuff wrapped by the wrappers that banks hand out for nothing if asked etc., etc.

Alarms and safes are great and you must use your brain when hiding the safe. 3 ro 4 small ones that cannot be found without a wrecking ball and backhoe beats the single large one. And if you can, have a dog. Burglars hate noise and a barking dog is noisy. Video systems are also nice....but be very careful who you have install alarms and video systems. do it yourself if you can.


Think like a burglar...next time you enter your home act like you only have 10 minutes to find whatever is valuable...where would you look? Would you grab the obvious shotguns, money left out on table, etc., or would you instead pull out the blueprints and start demolition?

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

It's the suit and tie thieves that worry me. In most cases they will attempt to claim your wealth under the guise of office. These crafty thieves despise any asset that has leaves no paper trail. I'm sure that certain "legal" changes to record the purchase and sale of PMs will greatly assist them in their plunder.

.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

I see what you are saying but I don't think that such a seizure is going to happen anytime soon. I would pull my valuables out very quickly at the slightest indication that such a seizure would occur.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

So will every body else pull out of safety boxes that is why you won't know when its time as govt is smarter than than that ----'''REMEMBER LOOSE LIPS SINK BIG SHIPS'''

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

I was discussing with my bullion dealer friend how I secure my valuables, largely through misdirection.

He stated that most of his customers use a safe deposit box. After we finished a spontaneous good laugh:haha: , he looked at me and said: "Can you imagine trusting a bank?"

I didn't have to answer.
:deal:

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

GPond
Loved the comment from bullion dealers friend on banks--End of Subject

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Gpond......certainly missdirection is the best way to secure PM's at home. However......even more worrysome to me than a break in at home is a fire! A fire knows no missdirection, and for those of us on other than the 1st floor (with no basement available)......a fire could prove disasterous! Imagine a floor giving way and 500-1000 lbs. of silver falling thru and hitting either a fireman, lower level dweller, or simply bags opening up and spreading out. Now imagine the firemarshall stating the building is condemned and can't be entered to retrieve ANYTHING!

What can you do......leave 50K or more worth of silver behind to be backhoed into a dumpster? If in a safe then maybe it could be retrieved easily, or at least have the police around while the big machinery was on site taking the building apart. But spread out in a house in bags......though hidden......would be quite a different scenaro. Someday i'm hoping to buy another rural single family home where a basement could have a floor vault installed..........but for now the 2nd floor of a 2 family is home.

......at least break-ins are much less likely on the 2nd floor, as the front door remains locked and not much chance of someone climbing thru a window!

.....it's also the reason i think "some" PM's should be stored at either another relative's house, or even in a bank safe deposit box. Should a fire accur at home......and since most of us metal savers don't have a lot of cash in a bank.......we might need access to some funds to rent a hotel room or another apartment while we try to retrieve our main stash. Possibly burying an emergency small stash on state land where YOU can find it might work for just this reason also. Sure some detector freaks might find it........but this is a small emergency stash only!

First choice for me would be a trusted relative's house, however.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Man, have any of you not heard of the """""midnight gardner""""" just use a take -off of this concept ---but be diversified

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

People trust banks with upwards of millions of dollars. I'm pretty sure you have a bank account with money in it yourself. :2in1:

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Banks for most of us in business have become unavoidable to do business with. The money in accounts kept there should never exceed the FDIC insurance...and you are assuming it will be around when you need it.

A neighbor of mind lived through the depression, he has a bank account...and a checking account. The minimum amount necessary to not incur fees is maintained in both accounts, and when a check written he goes and makes a deposit...carry what is needed with him from home to make the deposit.

I do not see bank accounts and safe deposit boxes the same. SD boxes are the perfect place perhaps for the important-not life sustaining vital stuff like homeowners policy, life insurance policy, etc. Sure, a small bag of gold, silver and cash should be kept there too...but I keep mine under 5%. Do I trust banks? No, I don't trust strangers :bandit:

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

I see what you are saying. But if you pay your taxes, you aren't a criminal and the government has no other excuse to seize your property I don't think you would have to worry. I think there would be a major outcry if people's safe deposit boxes were being molested by banks.

Anyways, are there any non-bank companies that offer safe storage of valuables on an anonymous basis? I did notice that my bank required me to fill out forms and show ID in order to set up my box, but there may be third party firms that do not have this requirement.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Hi Dissipate,

And welcome to Gold is Money, by the way.

Also, in case it sounded like I was belittling your point of view, I did not intend to. I reported our conversation just as it occurred. It would probably be more correct to say that my dealer friend and I distrust the government to keep it's paws off of the safe deposit boxes. But the banks will do what the government tells them to do, because they have no choice.

Like others here, I'm also concerned with the possibility of IRA's and 401K's being raided.

I will tell you this. I do have a bank account, but it doesn't have much money in it.

Cheers, and thanks for presenting your ideas.

gpond

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Joejeweler,

Enjoying your well thought out comments. Pretty smart not to have all eggs in one basket. At least with the metals (in a fire) there would be some chance of recovery. I'm not sure if the consumer fire safes would really keep the green stuff from burning up or not.

gpond

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

No offense taken. I understand exactly where you are coming from. In fact I just finished reading a book called The End of Money and the Struggle for Financial Privacy by Richard Rahn. The book discusses in one part how banks are forced by the government to basically spy on their customers. It goes well beyond safe deposit boxes, if you exhibit any behavior that would make them think that you were laundering money the bank is forced to report you.

I'm just saying that personally I am not afraid of my bank. The reason being is that I am WAY off their radar as far as any money laundering activities and I have no problems with the government (yet).

Curious though, where do you deposit your pay checks if you keep little in your bank account?

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Dissipate,

Yes, it goes to the bank, but payments are already scheduled so it also leaves there all too quickly... :afraid:

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

I only keep in the bank what I need to pay my bills plus 10%, keep cash at home for two months plus 10%, the rest goes to silver. Safety deposit box?
lollllllll, uncle sam can go into a safe deposit box at any time they want , they don't have to ask you, besides I would have to rent about 10 of the largest deposit box for what I do have,,,,,nawwwwwww I like it my way better, there is allways someone around. ....... Ponce

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Safety Deposit boxes? :haha:

For those of you who own SD boxes the important question is whether your bank is owned by the Feds or is it privately owned like say Bank of America is. I'm not worried because I don't own any SD boxes. But can you guys say the "C" word?

Safety Deposit boxes? Naw not this kid...I will take my chances with a possible fire.

If you're at home and a fire starts you should already have a plan on getting your PM's out of harms way.

Most of my PM's are in gold so I'm not worried about a fire really.

MLS

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Well Steve......not about to try to move 700 pounds of silver out when my life is on the line! But i might try to get the 4 guitars out of the house though....

......a handmade 1982 M. Kohno classical guitar, Taylor 912C steel string, Martin "Humphrey" classical, and the guitar my dad used to play for 25 years in a country band.......a 1966 Gretch Country Gentlemen like Chet Atkins and one of the Beatles used to play. The last one is more sentimental as the neck width is too narrow for fingerstyle play. These are worth around 12K and won't hold up in a fire like silver will anyway!

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

george harrison

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Give it time ...


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Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Joe,

700 pounds of silver?

Thats $50,000.00 plus worth of 90% melt bucket silver. :woohoo:

You might have to hire Santa Claus and his rheindeers or maybe even The Grinch and his little helper to get that payload out of there. :haha:

Good Luck

MLS

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Yeah,....i know it's alot.........i CARRIED it!!!!! :angry:

Fact is i just bought 5 more 100 oz. Engelhard bars on top of the 8 i bought yesterday, but these all went into my safe deposit box as a source of liquidity should the house burn down. (or FALL down! :haha: )

This is strickly a safeguard and i felt the chance of confiscation on silver virtually nill compared to gold, and i can live with the availibility to the bank hours.

Eventually i want to get some more gold, but right now silver is still pretty cheap so i'll prioritize that until the price rises again.

BTW.......i have the largest Safety deposit box available, and i've decided on getting 2 or 3 smaller ones next it's up for renewal. The 12 Engelhard 100 ounce bars barely make a dent in the box, but i doubt i'll put anymore in it. The thin steel box container is straining with the almost 100 lbs of bars, and the space left is really wasted. With smaller boxes i can fill them at much less weight each, and i'll try to get them spead out along the bank of boxes to spread the stress!

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Joe I guess we can't change your mind about the safe? deposit boxes.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Hi Ihslancers.......i still won't put any gold in the box, for all the reasons talked about on this site. But as i don't own any land right now(i used to) to bury some silver in, and my kids are 21 and 19(fairly young) and live with my ex-wife so i don't want to put any responsibility on them they might not be ready for.........so i needed a safe place for just a small part of my silver besides the main stash should i have a fire, say.

If i end up buying this place, which i might if the current owner doesn't get the past due taxes paid up soon(city is taking it back).......then i may do something like a vault in the basement for it all.

......but for now this gives me some diversification in storage for 1200 ounces that can get me rent and 1st/last months rent deposits should i need to get a new place due to a fire where i live.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Be careful when you slide the drawer out of the "safe" deposit box. I had over 300 lbs of silver in mine at one time and pulled it out too far (forgot about momentum when I put my weight against it) and made a lot of noise and bent the box. Fortunately, nobody heard and I removed everything and straightened it enough to slide it back in.
I don't have much in there anymore.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Wow.....300 lbs! I was getting nervous with just 1200 ounces (about 82 lbs.)
in there. Maybe a few more bars if i can get them cheap.

Were you on a lower level box? Mine is about chest high so and the inner box seems to rest on a plate of steel maybe 1/8 inch thick or so.......so i wasn't sure if it would take much more. But your mention of 300 lbs. tells me i've got some more weight to get in there.

BTW.....i just pulled the inner drawer out enough to raise the lid, which the clerk held up for me and looked away. If she peeked i was gonna drop a bar on her feet! :yippee: (kidding).

I kept all the silver to the back so it was no problem tipping.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

My drawer is second from the bottom and the floor has thin, high-traffic carpet on it. The event was not as dramatic as it could have been. If any of you get safe deposit boxes, ask for a lower one.

My bankers only unlock the door with their key and mine (two tumblers) and walk out. The wire handle on the drawer sometimes gives when I pull on it, so I had to oil the bottom of the drawer so I could get it out.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Welcome back hoarder!

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

I live in the center of a major metropolis on the fourth floor of a century-plus-old walkup building with no elevator. I have two hundred pounds of silver in a fifty-pound safe in the closet.

I've read that burglars may carry out the entire safe with the intention of cracking it later, but I don't see how any burglar is going to get 250 pounds of metal down three steep flights of narrow stairs. It would require at least a couple of very strong, agile guys. One mistep and the guy in front would be thrown down the stairs and severely injured or crushed to death. The only practical way to move that much silver is to open the safe and carry the contents out in parts.

In the event of a fire, I figure that my safe is in the closet which is above other closets. So if the floor gives way, no one will be hurt unless they're hiding in one of the closets below mine--I'd hope they'd have climbed out the fire escape and not be standing in the closet. I figure a television, loaded bookcase, bedframe, etc all present as much or more danger since these are more likely to fall through to places someone might be standing.

As a deterrent to discovery and theft, I hide fairly sizeable sums of cash in all the places a burglar would look (in cups at the back of cupboards, under the mattress, in the desk drawer, between the books on the shelves, etc). These discrete bits of cash are my combination insurance policy/offering to burglars. I figure if anyone breaks in, they'd be happy to get a couple hundred after ransacking my place for ten minutes and then get out. They may not even find the safe and if they do, they'd figure its not worth the risk and effort, considering they'd already scored a couple hundred FRNs.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Apparently Barbara you haven't heard of Joe The Jeweler. This guy has been known to carry 6 or 7 bags of 90% up 4 flights of stairs in each hand. Do not reveal any other details of the location of your silver hoard. It may not be there when you get home from work.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

I wish I had enough silver to get Joe's interest. My piddly ounces are nothing compared to that guy's stash.

I suppose I could indeed get robbed by one of those monsters from the Strongman competition.

There is an Old Skewl exercise called "the Farmer's Walk" in which you carry something really heavy in each hand and walk until you can't walk anymore. Some of the dudes I know load up a couple thick handle barbells (thick handles are much harder to hold because you can't curl your fingers around them and so the "open pinch" grip position is given a workout) and put a couple hundred pounds on each one, hold one in each hand with arms hanging at the sides, and then walk uphill a hundred yards or so! I just don't expect the average burglar to have anywhere that type of physical prowess.

I can't protect against EVERYTHING so I'm trying to protect myself against what's most likely to happen. Where I live, a break-in would probably come from some random petty criminal, not a safecracking expert or Olympic-level weightlifter. The safe I have wouldn't hold up against a determined, skilled burglar who has budgeted a couple of hours for the job, but it will deter a housebreaker who's just looking to grab whatever dollar bills he can find within ten or fifteen minutes.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

I have a safe probably just like yours, you might want to drill four holes in the bottom of the safe and anchor it to the floor with lag bolts if it's a wooden floor or use Redhead concrete anchors, fender washers and nuts for masonry floors.

Just a thought.


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Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Ummmm,......i don't believe i ever said in ONE trip! LOL And it was only a single flight of stairs,......but after 7 bags it felt like 4 flights! :stickyman

Barbara,......as was mentioned don't give anymore info on your location, and i might remind you a safe like yours COULD be easily moved by strapping it to one of those 2 wheeled dollies often used to move refridgerators and such.

....put a cardboard box or blanket around it and it wouldn't attract much attention either as they are a common sight for getting items moved. The bolting to the floor would help to slow down a robber......OR.....

.......get a bigger safe and pack it full. (always a nice goal!)

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Banks do their problems and they are insured by the Federal Reserve system.
I recently heard about a close friend who owned his own business. He kept a couple of hundred grand in his large safe deposit box. The bank manager was fired and before he left he "borrowed" the 200 grand. The man had a reason for keeping in in cash (due to a divorce and it {the 200 grand} being an inheritance) and was a well-known in the local community.

The Federal Reserve saw they could be compromised with bad publicity printed up the 200 grand and gave it to him in cash. Now, imagine that you were that man and had gold in there instead. Fiat Bankers just love gold right?

Do you have enough clout if they fire your manager to get your "stuff" back? Remember in 1933 the FEDS spent a week opening the bank deposit boxes grabbing the gold and leaving $20 FRN for each ounce they "borrowed." Six months later the "borrowed" gold was raised to $35.00 so the theft became 160% then. In the worst time in American history they steal from the citizens. Cold, cold. They gave no warning. Let's say Freddie and Fannie go broke this week - will they warn you about that? Next day all banks are closed and the FEDS sift for what they can find to make up for the 8 TRILLION lost. Banks are phoney. They are the ones making all the debt money and sadly too many people trust them way too much.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

That's an interesting story. Do you know if the fired manager admitted to the theft? I can't imagine that a bank would have taken your friend's word for it. Anyone can say tons of cash is missing from his safe deposit box, but what about burden of proof?
Another thing, how did the manager know the cash was in the box? He must have been checking numerous boxes.

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

So many great idea's, thanks to all. I can't add much more, to this subject. All I can say is , don't keep it all in one place. Some of the readers of these posts live in Europe. It's been a few years, since the WWII, where a lot of people lost all there possessions, including there pm's. Some of them lost their lives in that war and there are many accounts in Switzerland, that [therefore] stayed unclaimed. I don't expect North America to go through any devastation as was so common in many European countries but, expect the unexpected.
The World Trade Centre reminded me of Warsaw except, in that city, over 90% of the buildings were in ruins. Many other city's were also in ruins. Buried "stashes" of pm's were nowhere to be found. I can still see London's streets and neibourhoods, all on fire, from V-1 and V-2 rockets. The US is now , and will be going to war in the future. Maybe, at some point, the war will be brought to the US?
Maybe, for now, your stash is safe at home. But if buildings start to come down, you will have to move it to a safer place. Start planning.
As I said at the beginning, keep them pm's in more places then one. Unless, of course, all u have is one [coin].

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

My bank won't let me keep PMs in their safe deposit boxes, it's in the user agreement. I wouldn't want to anyway, for all the reasons that have been posted. I keep a few PMs at home, well hidden and spread out. A garden variety thief would probably grab my jewelry box (mostly cheap) and stereo, and be happy with that. They would have to disable the alarm first. We are well armed, and usually home, though.
:wink:

I have the majority of my PMs stored at a security firm which stores Class 3 machine guns, among other things. They have a ridiculous security system (multiple alarms) and armed people on premises much of the day. I have a safe on site and they DON'T have my combination or key. I trust them much more than a bank, and I'm friendly with the owner, and friends with much of the staff!

Jennifer

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home
 

Interesting thread but i notice that no founding members care to diviluge and hiding places ---may be that should be the order of the day ----only one thing is to be extremely creative in many hiding places---
if you asked Khan he would probably have made his basement floor out of silver bars 2 feet thick and same with his basement walls

Re: Keeping valuables safe at home, user agreement shouldn't apply to junk silver...
 

Jennifer,.......how will the bank know you did unless you tell them? They have NO right to go snooping in there unless you're dead and they have an order to open it. At that point you won't care anyway. As banks don't insure contents you haven't lost anything there,.....and unless you store so much that it collapses the box or vault frame not a problem in my mind.

Also,.....PM's come in all flavors......

......for instance,......keep your silver stash in 90% "junk" silver and all you're technically doing is storing some "cash" for safe keeping. Every time i get a few bucks saved up i put it into my vehicle of choice (and i sell it on ebay and trade a small spread) due to the low premiums.....90% 1964 dated Uncirculated Kennedy Half Dollars.

The fact that junk silver trades today as bullion is secondary,.......it is still US coin and therefore not subject to the bullion exclusion for safe deposit storage. My bank doesn't have any such exclusions,......but it wouldn't stop me if it did!

The other mentioned potential problems for safe deposit box storage still apply however. (possible Gov't seizure and such sometime in the future when the doller turns to total crap and TPTB panic).

Joe T